President Jon Hall shares the incredible story of innovation behind Glastender Incorporated.

Podcast Description:

Glastender Incorporated is built on two core philosophies: innovation and quality.  This shows not only in the products that Glastender manufactures but with the relationship that management has with the employees as well as the customers.  This investment in relationships has allowed Glastender to succeed and establish itself as an industry leader.  The "Go-To" for restaurant and bar hardware. With a company motto of "Expect More", they deliver on that promise time after time.

Links from the episode

Glastender Inc. Website: https://www.glastender.com/

Glastender Inc. Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/glastender 

This Episode was Sponsored by the Stevens Center for Family Business.  You can get more information by visiting their website here:  https://www.svsu.edu/stevenscenterforfamilybusiness/

Transcript

Casey Stevens: This podcast is brought to you by the Stevens Center for Family Business, whose mission is to support the success of family businesses through the generations, with education, networking, and collaboration. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: I don't want to build second-rate things and I don't want to build things for price. But we've been able to build it for pretty good price and get people the quality. Our motto is “Expect More”. 

Cliff Duvernois: Hello everyone. Welcome back to Ordinary People, Extraordinary Things. I am your host, Cliff Duvernois. Michigan is a proud, proud manufacturing state. And today's guest along with this family have worked hard not only to build a business that produce awesome products. But to bring the management employees together into one hardworking, cohesive team.

Cliff Duvernois: Today I'm sitting with John Hall, CEO, and founder of Glastender Incorporated based in Saginaw, Michigan. 

Cliff Duvernois: Jon, how are you? 

Jon Hall, Glastender: I'm very good, thank you.

Cliff Duvernois: Tell us a little bit about where you're from and where you grew up.

Jon Hall, Glastender: I grew up in Saginaw, Michigan. Been here all my life other than the Army.

Cliff Duvernois: You decided to go in the Army after you finished with school?

Cliff Duvernois: Why?

Jon Hall, Glastender: No, I quit school. 

Cliff Duvernois: You quit school. Why did you quit school?

Jon Hall, Glastender: Thought it was boring. I quit school and went to Saginaw high night school.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Then, lost my driver's license. So, then I decided I might as well get the military out of the way.

Cliff Duvernois: So that's why you joined the military? I was reading in your book that you joined the military. You were working on missiles at the time, and the army decided to ship you off to Germany.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Yes.

Cliff Duvernois: When you were on your way over there, you came up with this affirmation to ‘Do the best I can in all things’ while serving in Germany and afterwards. Where did that affirmation come from?

Jon Hall, Glastender: Well, I wasn't getting anywhere in Detroit. I was stationed at Metro Airport on an underground missile base. And like most kids, I was just goofing-off most of the time.

Jon Hall, Glastender: And then when I went to Germany, on the ship going across the ocean, I decided that I was going to try to do my best. And that seemed to work in my favor.

Cliff Duvernois: But, why come up with an affirmation?

Jon Hall, Glastender: I don't know why. I Just did.

Cliff Duvernois: You've done your tour in the military and when you finished that tour, you had a choice. You could have stayed in Germany, or you could come back and join your father's company. 

Cliff Duvernois: Why did you decide to come back and join your father's company?

Jon Hall, Glastender: I figured he was getting to the age where he needed some help. He was 61, when I came home. Um, I came home in the second week of May. The third week of May, I was at the restaurant show in Chicago. Learning the business.

Cliff Duvernois: Let's talk a little bit about the history of your father's company. It's called EDC. Tell us about EDC. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: Equipment distributing, rented ice machines in the local area. He did that for when I was in school. I even worked on some when I was 16 years old. But when I came home, we took a serious look at it, and we had like 38 ice machines on rent when I came home.

Jon Hall, Glastender: And after a few years we ended up with 500 on rent. And when I first got out of that, I developed the world's first automatic ice dispenser. Which I went to the company that we bought ice machines from, and they liked it real well. I was going to give it to them, and they suggested I manufacture it.

Jon Hall, Glastender: After I did that, I kind of liked manufacturing rather than being out here selling.

Cliff Duvernois: So before, were you just a reseller of these ice machines, or did your father have like a manufacturing facility. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: No, we were a reseller.

Jon Hall, Glastender: So that's where I learned, I went to the factory in Erie, Pennsylvania. I liked the machine real well. I liked the people real well and I liked to make things. So that's when they told me to go back and make it ourselves. I learned about manufacturing because I had to make it back here and ship it to them. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: And later on, I saw a need for a glass washer after we had 500 ice machines on rent we were running out ice machine customers. So, I saw a straight-line conveyor, glass washer, decided it was too long, took too much time. As we developed the rotary glass washer, and we sold one to the Ace of Clubs in Saginaw. The second one went into Johnson's Bar in Lansing, Michigan. And we built a cocktail station for a passthrough version.

Jon Hall, Glastender: So, the cocktail server could load it and the bartender could unload it. And after that we started building them around here, and pretty soon we ran out of customers again.

Jon Hall, Glastender: So, we decided to take it nationally. And that got going really well. And the equipment company was selling a lot of equipment and we were designing bars and we got in past just the glass washer, but now we're selling bars. And we had friends at Holsinger Manufacturing in Kawkawlin. And we designed bars and sold bars to people.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Then that became, we decided to build more things for the bar. But I had a good friend that was out in area in Nevada building liquor dispensing. He was a sales manager there. And then he moved to Lake Tahoe. And I told him, gee, you can come to Saginaw. You don't have to work 12 hours a day and not be able to find something to do.

Jon Hall, Glastender: And at that point, Saginaw, you know, there was not a lot going on here. We could work 12 hours, and nobody missed you. But Mike Tao was a shame to work 12 hours and he got all these places to go. So, Jay came back and we started pushing this thing nationally. And it started going really, really well. Except that now, we couldn't produce enough to take care of the people.

Jon Hall, Glastender: So, we made a decision to go west of the Mississippi. We canceled all our dealers and went back this half of the country to see if we could keep up with production. Cause when you first start, if you get going too fast, you run on the money. You know, you're working really hard, and the money doesn't come in as fast as you think it should.

Jon Hall, Glastender: So, with growth over 25% a year it kind of hurts you. 

Cliff Duvernois: When I was reading your book, something caught my eye. A lot of manufacturing focuses on what's called planned obsolescence, meaning that if I get an electric razor, it might last me three or four years before it breaks down, and then I got to go buy another one. Right? They want repeat customers. It's just cheaper to go buy. 

Cliff Duvernois: That's not how you do it. You had a customer in Bay City that had one of your wash machines for 50 years.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Isn't that nice?

Cliff Duvernois: As a business owner. Yeah. That's really nice. If I don't have to replace a machine every three years.

Cliff Duvernois: Yes, 

Jon Hall, Glastender: years, I figured if I sold everybody just once, there's enough buyers to take care of us.

Cliff Duvernois: Where did that emphasis on quality come from? 

Jon Hall, Glastender: I don't want to build second rate things and I don't want to build things for price. But we've been able to build it for a pretty good price and get people the quality. Our motto is ‘expect more.’ People open the box and they'll say, gee, I didn't expect all that. So, you try to take care of your customers. The customers when you do a nice job for 'em will tell other people.

Cliff Duvernois: Yeah, they will. They're your best sales force. What I'd like to do is I would like to explore a little bit about when you first started Glastender, because Glastender started out from EDC.

Cliff Duvernois: So why did you decide to make Glastender like its own separate company versus just have it be part of EDC and just keep that going? 

Jon Hall, Glastender: Well, in the real world, if you own a equipment company and you're selling to customers out there, and now you try to get other dealers to buy something from you, they don't want to do that.

Jon Hall, Glastender: They want to buy from a manufacturer. They didn't want to buy from equipment distributing.

Jon Hall, Glastender: And it just made logical sense to make Glastender a separate company. And at that time, I brought my dad into that business with me. And it worked well. I think my employees had a paycheck along before I did. 

Cliff Duvernois: So, when did you start Glastender? And you drew your first paycheck when?

Jon Hall, Glastender: Uh, around 1981 or 82 or somewhere around there.

Cliff Duvernois: So that's 12 years before you finally were able to draw a paycheck for yourself. I know a lot of people out there would give up after a year or maybe even two. It's not worth it. But you stuck with it for 12 years. Why?

Jon Hall, Glastender: Well, I think the answer is if you want to grow the business, you must be able to put the money back into the business to be able to grow it. If you're shortsighted and you want all the money right now, you're not going to grow very far because you're going to run out of money again. And I had an income from the equipment company, and I worked there, and my wife suffered because I worked 18 hours a day. And you tell somebody to work seven days a week they won’t. But I did that for 18 years! It pays off.

Cliff Duvernois: During the late seventies and going into the early eighties, the economy tanked. Inflation was outta control. 

Cliff Duvernois: Interest rates were through the roof.

Cliff Duvernois: And it seems like you guys were not immune from this effect either. 

Cliff Duvernois: And on top of that, it also seems like there was a lot of, uh, internal changes that were happening. Maybe some different types of decisions of the directions where the company would go.

Cliff Duvernois: How did you get through that time?

Jon Hall, Glastender: Hard work, I guess. We just kept our eye focused where we were going and kept doing it. You know, we started looking for, and the chains started happening. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: You know, after the expressways were built, restaurant chains would open stores that would open up at every exit. And so it happened that local bars weren't going as well as they should have. But the national accounts were going.

Jon Hall, Glastender: So, by having customers like Chili's and they had five concepts and having Outback as a customer. And I think right now we have maybe 180 or 190 different national accounts as customers, which really helps.

Cliff Duvernois: So, it seems like the national franchise boom in the restaurant business, the higher end of people that need to wash glasses, and plates really took off. And you were able to be a part of that.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Right. And we do a lot more than just glass washers. We make back bar coolers and sinks and ice bins and soda gun holders and a multitude of things. Remote beer systems. We developed a tremendous amount of product. Which has really helped us grow and our customers. When we were just building glass washer, they wanted us to build more things. So, it was just a natural to start doing more things they needed.

Cliff Duvernois: Just to keep expanding the manufacturing environment.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Yes. We started building underbar stainless, the sinks and the ice bins. And then we went to Florida and bought CCA Cooler Corporation. And shipped it back in five semis and then later threw it all away. Because we didn't like anything he was doing besides the foam technology. And uh, their philosophy was to build something cheap and ours was the other way around. And so that was a question like people always ask, how did you do that? 

Jon Hall, Glastender: Well, we had to be price conscious. So, we built a cooler in the first year, we lost about $800 a cooler. The second year, about $400 a cooler. Third year, maybe $200. And it was just volume. We had to get the volume going to be able to reduce the cost. But we had to have a price. So those are hard decisions to make and say, I must sell it at a loss. 

Cliff Duvernois: We're going to take a quick break to thank our sponsors. When we come back, Jon is going to share with us how tinkering around with cars helped Glastender build better products, how mentors can make a difference in your business, and how Glastender management and employees work together as a cohesive team.

Cliff Duvernois: Hello everyone. Welcome back to Ordinary People, extraordinary Things. 

Cliff Duvernois: I'm sitting with Jon Hall, CEO o and founder of Glastender in Saginaw, Michigan.

Cliff Duvernois: John, before the break, we were talking about your penchant really for creating, uh, really good products and taking care of the customer. What I want to do is I want to take a trip back because I know you're a car guy.  And you've been a car guy forever and a day. And you love automobiles, you love tinkering around with them. 

Cliff Duvernois: So, the first question I have for you is why not just go into cars? Why join your dad's business? Why start the Glastender business? 

Jon Hall, Glastender: I think the cars were more of a hobby. I enjoyed doing that. Um, people like Pretz Garage let me come in and learn to sand cars and learn to paint cars. And said, here, you can use the spray gun and all of that. And I never thought about it as a living. It was just, I like to customize cars and change 'em around and build 'em my own way. But they're for fun cars. They're not a production type car. 

Cliff Duvernois: And this is something that you have been doing since high school.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Yep. Before high school. Yeah. I painted my first car, as I said, when I was 16.

Jon Hall, Glastender: I bought my first car when I got out of the eighth grade. Had it two weeks and traded for another car. In Germany, we had built a warhead building to put missiles together with. And it took a five-ton wrecker, a day and a half and I used the air off the five-ton wrecker so I could paint my Volkswagen. I've got some paint from the Air Force. Naturally it was blue.

Cliff Duvernois: With your hobby of messing around with cars, hot rods, how do you think that played into innovating products for Glastender?

Jon Hall, Glastender: Well, I think that the fact that you're playing with sheet metal and the things you do in the cars and the things I wanted to develop there helped me develop different things for building our own equipment. And helped us for dyes and tools. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: 50 some years ago, we developed a welding, because at that time TIG welding would go to 30 amps. At the top of it was a little roll thing that you, to adjust the amperage. I wired two in series. I was able to lower the amperage down and we started doing a little tacking.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Last year, I saw it on the web and they called it cold tacking. We've been doing it for years. And it gets rid of the distortion, and it lets you tack together. Real quick. Hurry and develop different welding processes for here. Just sake of welding, I guess. But help build the equipment. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: I learned to do sheet metal work.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Um, I learned to do plumbing, and be an electrician. And when you get into this business, remember we can't just build equipment. We have to go through the National Sanitation Foundation to oh, to make sure things will meet that. Uh, we have to go through UL. When I first went to UL there were on Ohio Street in downtown Chicago.

Cliff Duvernois: What is UL? 

Jon Hall, Glastender: Underwriters Laboratories.

Jon Hall, Glastender: All electrical. And so now you must learn to be able to draw wiring diagrams and make the things safe so somebody doesn't get hurt playing with your equipment or using it as the case may be. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: At the National Sanitation Foundation (NSF), they were originally headquartered at the University of Michigan. Then they moved on Plymouth Road. Now they're back at another road.

Jon Hall, Glastender: But huge, complex, and they do standards all over the world for people to do this. And at this day I'm on the joint committee at the National Sanitation Foundation. And so, we're one of the teams that do the final analysis whether something's going into standards or not. So that's been another experience as a volunteer thing.

Cliff Duvernois: Where did this spirit of innovation come from?

Jon Hall, Glastender: I think once you start thinking that way, I believe strongly in the subconscious mind.

Jon Hall, Glastender: It doesn't know right from wrong, fact from fiction. If you plant something in it tomorrow morning, it may give you an idea when you wake up. And as you get innovative, like I've told my son Todd, he writes a lot of songs. Once he gets into one, he starts writing more songs. It's just once you start doing it, it seems to happen.

Jon Hall, Glastender: I imagine you find the same thing, Cliff.

Cliff Duvernois: On more than one occasion, I've woken up in the morning with the answer to a question that I went to bed with in my head. So yes, I agree. The subconscious is powerful.

Jon Hall, Glastender: I drive Roadsters across country without a radio. So, I get a lot of time to think. And we need to think more. A lot of people are so busy with hearing somebody else talk, they don't take time to think.

Cliff Duvernois: That's an interesting, if I had more time, I would dive into that.

Cliff Duvernois: Throughout your, your career, going through EDC, going into Glastender, there's a heavy influence of mentorships that you've had and that are part of your company today. Talk to us a little bit about the role that mentoring has had for you and on the business.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Well, I would say when I first did Presser Garage, helping me learn things there, uh, automobile things, and they first helped me fix a wizard, motorbike. 

Cliff Duvernois: Nice. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: And then as we got going, one of my best friends was Arnie Wally, Wally's Restaurants in Flint, who let me design things for him. And I made big cold tables so he could have salad bars made for people and carving stations for meat. And I learned a lot from the restaurant industry from him. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: And showing how a kitchen was designed to lay out food. So we designed bars so that we could be productive. And we trained people how to maximize the effort on their bar, and I think Jay turned the term cocktail life cycle.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Where most bars had seven steps to make a drink, but they never thought about unmaking it. So, there's 11 steps when we come back and unmake the drink and get rid of the trash and the ice and the wet waste, and then we wash the glass. Because it, it's a constant cycle. It just doesn't go one way.

Cliff Duvernois: For your company, Glastender, your kids have grown up and now they are part of the company as well. Talk to us a little bit about having them come on board. What has that been like? 

Jon Hall, Glastender: Well, the boys all worked here when they were like 12.

Cliff Duvernois: Cheap labor.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Yeah. They were putting pumps together for the glass washers and so on and so forth. And then when Todd finished with Michigan, and he was always a singer, and he had long hair and he figured nobody would hire him.

Jon Hall, Glastender: So, I hired him, but I, I wanted him to come back. We, at that time, our sales were growing. We needed help. And we kind of pulled him in and said, here you go. And my daughter Kim had a master's in nursing. She got more into administrative. And at that time, we were going to a hiring service and all they'd send us was the same people over all the time.

Jon Hall, Glastender: And she thought we should have a more mix of people in the building.

Jon Hall, Glastender: So she came over to help us start that. And we should only gonna be here a little while. And then now she, her and Todd have done a tremendous job taking care of all the people and she worries about the people. Todd worries about the sales.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Seems to work. 

Cliff Duvernois: Now, the question of innovation that you and I have talked about a couple times here not only applies to coming up with new products. But it's also with regards to your workforce, not only management, but your manufacturing employees. Like I know you went through a cycle of trying to implement lean manufacturing and there's been several other the philosophies that you have worked hard to implement here to kind of standardize your process. 

Cliff Duvernois: Where did that come from? 

Cliff Duvernois: Why not just keep things at the status quo? 

Jon Hall, Glastender: Well, there was a time when they talked about lean manufacturing at General Motors and so on. So that just in time manufacturing, somebody delivered the thing just in time. At that time now, Kim's husband, Mark was w with us, came on board.

Jon Hall, Glastender: We had some consultants come in here and think we could build everything right now and ship it. And the idea was a good idea. But it needed about 10 years of planning for it. Because you had to lift the right equipment. Today, when we cut metal, four days later, it's in a box leaving the building. We build nothing to put on the shelves because we have thousands and thousands of different models that people could order.

Jon Hall, Glastender: And through a lot of work of Mark following that through, and we were putting one edition on, and Mark says, we don't need it that big. We're going to get rid of the shelves. So, we end up cutting shelving down for years. And, uh, everybody’s on board.

Jon Hall, Glastender: If you look back when we had so many pieces that just laying out the sheet of metal and what we were going to cut on, it took a whole team of people. Were today, that's all automated. We plug it in. We know what we're going to build. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: Every machine we build, you can push a button and break it into pieces. From nuts and bolts to screws. And if we normally had a four-week lead time, so by the time we were getting ready to cut metal, it would tell purchasing if we needed this or it could be out of that. So, we could have that in the building before it was coming. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: But the only thing we inventory is sheet metal. So, we're able to cut it and bend it. And it's been a great process. But everybody, you know, Todd's worked at it, Mark's worked at it. I've worked at, it was just all our engineers have worked at it. But with common goal. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: And then years later, Todd came up with open book management. Which we train our employees how to read the books to see if we're making a profit. And we need to make a profit for everybody to share it. So if we fill a bucket, our employees get part of the bucket. Which is kind of strange in, in the business world, but profit's not a bad word.

Jon Hall, Glastender: And think about five guys on a basketball team that are real good players. Think about 200 people played together really well. It's quite easy.

Jon Hall, Glastender: That's hard for people to conceive that you would do that. But it zeros in on the employee who starts looking at his own area. Where is he losing money? And he knows what a bolt costs and he not throwing it on the floor, and he is not wasting things. So, our turnover's very low.

Cliff Duvernois: Like you talked about the open book management that I thought was actually really slick to make them feel like, Hey, you know what? We're not hiding anything from you. This is exactly where we stand. 

Cliff Duvernois: So that’s way you understand where you are in the company and how your individual contribution matters to our bottom line.

Jon Hall, Glastender: And we try to raise people up from within. If they want to grow with us, they can grow and have other jobs. There are some people that don't want to do that. There's some people that want to grow and try different things all the time. There's other people that are more comfortable doing the same thing over and over again. Here, it's a variety of things you're building. Nobody does the same thing all day long. They're just, it's more fun to work here.

Cliff Duvernois: Yes. It's kind of nice when your days aren't all the same.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Right.

Cliff Duvernois: So now with your kids that have come on board, how have you taken a step back from doing everything?

Jon Hall, Glastender: Well, first of all, now we have two more kids on board. My son Rick came on board and my youngest daughter Christina, came on board. So, they are all here. And part of the fun, they all work in different areas so they're not competing with one another.

Jon Hall, Glastender: And the whole idea is that when I came back from the service, I went back and finished my high school, got a diploma, and then I went to Delta and took business law and accounting. I figured I needed those things. You know, and that seemed to help.

Jon Hall, Glastender: The kids have got a great education and the idea is to listen to other people. You know, people look at you and they say, well, gee, I got to do this. The leading generation, when we're talking about it, most of 'em have a hard time giving up control. And our kids have run the business for a lot of years. I just get to play around. R and D area make things and it's a lot easier. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: But, um, work where you wanna work. If you're gonna give up control and you're gonna delegate, you gotta learn to delegate. But the biggest thing about delegating, you learn, learn to follow up on it, to make sure it was done right.

Jon Hall, Glastender: And then let people make mistakes. That's how they're gonna learn from them. If you tell 'em how to do everything, they're not gonna learn.

Cliff Duvernois: They're not gonna feel like a valued part of the company then either. Right?

Jon Hall, Glastender: The idea is to, if you're working on a machine with me and you're gonna take it over now, I want you to take ownership of it. And once it's on, you have ownership of it. You're gonna feel like it's yours and you're gonna try harder. 

Cliff Duvernois: With ownership, there comes a certain level of pride.

Jon Hall, Glastender: Yes. When everybody leaves here at night, they go home feeling good because they're making something somebody uses.

Cliff Duvernois: Well, like you said, four days later it's out the door. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: Yes.

Cliff Duvernois: One of the things that I was thinking about is that it seems like there is a rush when somebody goes into manufacturing, like they can't get it off to China fast enough to have it made over in China for cheaper.

Cliff Duvernois: But as you just mentioned before, you feel that manufacturing is the backbone of America. Why do you feel this way? Why not send it over to China and beef up your profit margins and all that other good?

Jon Hall, Glastender: We've been forced to buy certain things from China. We, we used to do investment casting in Bay City. But they couldn't keep up with us. And some of the jobs that are hard they automatically moved to China because people here wouldn't do 'em.

Jon Hall, Glastender: It, it's not a case that, um, we try to build everything here.

Jon Hall, Glastender: We build more of our product here than any of our competitors do. Um, we buy a compressor and build the rest of the condensing unit where other people buy a module that's already done. We want jobs for here. True wealth has grown through manufacturing. Period. 

Jon Hall, Glastender: We don't want to be a service country just buying something from someone else.

Jon Hall, Glastender: You, if you want to control your own destiny, going back to look at building a glass, I mean an ice dispenser. I sold it to the company, but I never thought that they put much effort into selling it. So now I learned I better be able to control what I'm making.

Jon Hall, Glastender: So, I want to build it and control the sales of it. I learned from watching the company in Erie, Pennsylvania out, they were landlocked. So, when we came here, we didn't want to be landlocked. We bought the original parcel. We bought the ones next to us or the other side, and then 17 acres behind us to try not to have that happen. You should learn by other experiences.

Cliff Duvernois: Agreed. When you talk about the term landlock, what do you mean by that?

Jon Hall, Glastender: Well, they couldn't build. There were tied in both sides. There were buildings there and there. They built a building over the top of their existing building. We have plenty of land here. And the nice thing about Saginaw, we have a lot of good workers. There are people here that want to go to work. They want to make things. You know, not everybody wants to work in a restaurant business. So, some people have to make things for the restaurant industry. And there's people that have done a great job in the restaurant industry making a ton of money. It's like whatever you try, if you work at it hard enough, you should be all right, and if you find a need; fill it.

Cliff Duvernois: John, if somebody's listening to this interview and they want to check out what it is that you're, they're doing, the different kind of products that you offer, uh, what would be the best way for them to do that?

Jon Hall, Glastender: They can go on the Glastender website and learn about what we do. 

Cliff Duvernois: And for our audience, just go to totalmichigan.com. Click on John's interview to get the links that are mentioned in this show. You can also see other amazing interviews that we've had with other fellow Michiganders. Take a quick second to subscribe to our newsletter. Once again, that's total michigan.com.

Cliff Duvernois: See you back here again next week for another great story. See you then.